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Elevation or Crucifixion of Jesus?
Source : Stories of the Prophets (Darussalam), Imam Ibn Kathir
Allah says:
“And when Allah said: ‘O Jesus! I will take you and lift you up to Me, and purify you of those who disbelieve, and will make those who followed you above those who disbelieved until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me shall you all return, and I shall judge between you in that which you dispute.’” [Surah Ali ‘Imran3:54,55]
Then He said in Surah Al Nisa’:
“For their breaking the covenant, and their disbelief in Allah’s Signs, and their slaying the Prophets unjustly, and for their saying: ‘Our hearts are impermeable’. No, but Allah has set a seal upon them for their blasphemy, so little it is what they believe. And for their rejection to the Faith, and for their uttering against Mary a monstrous lie.” [Surah Al Nisa’ 4:155,156]
“And for their saying (in boast): ‘We killed Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah’; but they killed him not nor crucified him. Only a likeness of that was shown to them. And those who differ therein are full of doubt with no certain knowledge, but only follow mere conjecture, for of a surety they killed him not. But Allah lifted him up to Him, and Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise. And there is none of the people of the Book, but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Judgment, he will be a witness against them.” [Surah Al Nisa’ 4:157-159]
These Verses tell us that Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) was lifted up to the heaven after his opponents from Jews complained and misled the king of that time, as they wanted to slay him and crucify him.
Ibn Abu Hatim has narrated from Ibn Abbas saying:
“When Allah wanted to lift him up to heaven, Jesus came to his companions in the house. There were twelve people, with some from among his disciples. He had just a bath, and his head was still dribbling with water. He said to them: ‘There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after he had believed in me!’ Then he said: ‘Who will from among you take my likeness and be killed in my place, so will become in my rank?’ A young youth came forwards. But Jesus said to him: ‘Sit down! Then he repeated the same question, and the same youth stood up and came forwards, and said: ‘I.’ Jesus said: ‘You are the one,’ and then the likeness of Jesus was put on him, and Jesus was lifted up to the heaven from the window of his house.
Jews came looking for him. They took the youth and killed him and then crucified him. Later they became three groups. One group, who are called Jacobites (Yaqubiyah), believe that it was God Himself among them who stayed with them as long as He wanted to, then went back to the heaven. Another group who are called Nestorian (Nasturiyah), believed that it was the son of God who was with them, and stayed among them as long as he wanted, then his father lifted him up. But the group of true believers said that he was the slave of Allah and His Messenger who stayed among them as long as he wanted, then his Lord Allah took him up to Him. The two disbeliever groups collided together against the believer group and killed them, and so real teachings of Islam taught by Jesus became obscure till Allah sent the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).”
Hasan Basri and Ibn Ishaq said:
“The king who ordered the killing of Jesus, was David bin Naura. He commanded Jesus to be killed and hanged. They surrounded Jesus who was in a house inside Bait-ul-Maqdis. It was a Saturday night. When they were about to enter the house, his likeness was put on one of those who were present there with him. And Jesus was lifted up from the window of that house to the heaven. When the police entered the house they found the youth on whom the likeness of Jesus was put, so they took him and crucified him. Even they put a crown of thorns on his head to mock him. Those Christians who were not present there at that time, believed what Jews claimed, that they killed Jesus.
Allah said: “And there is none of the people of the Book, but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Judgment, he will be a witness against them.” This refers to the time when Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) will descend to the earth before the Day of Judgment, and kill the swine, break the Cross, impose the levy, and will not be pleased but with Islam.”
Ibn Jarir has narrated from Wahb bin Munabbih, saying:
“Jesus came along with seventeen of his disciples to a house. Then police came and surrounded the house. However, when they entered the house, Allah put the likeness of Jesus on all of those who were there. They were confused, and said: “You have bewitched us. Either Jesus come to us, or we will kill of you.” Jesus said to his companions: “Who can buy today a place in Jannah (Paradise)?” A man said: “I”‘ and went out, claiming: “I am Jesus.” They took him and crucified him, and so they were deluded in their belief that they have killed Jesus, and so are the Christians. But Jesus was lifted up to Allah on that day.”
Ibn ‘Asakir said: “Mary lived after Jesus for five years, and then died at the age of fifty-three years.”
Hasan Basri said: “Jesus was thirty-four years old when he was lifted to the heaven.” Sa’id bin Musayyib said: “He was thirty-three years old when he was raised up to the heaven.”
THANKS FOR THE ARTICLE.
Well, unless you have read the story in the bible about his death I probably would have believed you. But for one, the person who betrayed Jesus was one of his own disciples, Judas. Judas actually left Jesus on the Passover to get a crowd of soldiers, chief priests and Pharisees (who would have known Jesus from his preaching). Judas then came up to Jesus and gave him a kiss as a sign of who to get, there is no way Jesus would have made a mistake like the Quran states.
Luke 22:47 (ESV)
While he was still speaking, there came a crowd, and the man called Judas, one of the twelve, was leading them. He drew near to Jesus to kiss him,
Another thing, this is also backed up with a prophesy in the old testament. Judas did this for 30 pieces of silver (the price of a slave)
Matt 26:14-16 (ESV)
Then one of the twelve, whose name was Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests
and said, “What will you give me if I deliver him over to you?” And they paid him thirty pieces of silver.
And from that moment he sought an opportunity to betray him.
and:
Matt 27:3-5 (ESV)
Then when Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus was condemned, he changed his mind and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders,
saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.”
And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself.
backed up with:
Zech 11:12-13 (ESV)
Then I said to them, “If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them.” And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver.
Then the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”-the lordly price at which I was priced by them. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord, to the potter.
And also Judas at the Passover left after receiving bread from Jesus to fulfil the prophesy
Ps 41:9 (ESV)
????????Even my close friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted his heel against me.
You can read this in John
John 13:21-30 (ESV)
After saying these things, Jesus was troubled in his spirit, and testified, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.”
The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he spoke.
One of his disciples, whom Jesus loved, was reclining at table close to Jesus,
so Simon Peter motioned to him to ask Jesus of whom he was speaking.
So that disciple, leaning back against Jesus, said to him, “Lord, who is it?”
Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped it.” So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.
Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.”
Now no one at the table knew why he said this to him.
Some thought that, because Judas had the moneybag, Jesus was telling him, “Buy what we need for the feast,” or that he should give something to the poor.
So, after receiving the morsel of bread, he immediately went out. And it was night.
The death of Jesus is also backed up through the old testament as well
Ps 22:7-8 (ESV)
????????All who see me mock me; they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
????????“He trusts in the Lord; let him deliver him; let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”
Ps 22:16-18 (ESV)
????????For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet-
????????I can count all my bones- they stare and gloat over me;
????????they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.
compare those with these verses.
Luke 23:32-38 (ESV)
Two others, who were criminals, were led away to be put to death with him.
And when they came to the place that is called The Skull, there they crucified him, and the criminals, one on his right and one on his left.
And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments.
And the people stood by, watching, but the rulers scoffed at him, saying, “He saved others; let him save himself, if he is the Christ of God, his Chosen One!”
The soldiers also mocked him, coming up and offering him sour wine
and saying, “If you are the King of the Jews, save yourself!”
There was also an inscription over him, “This is the King of the Jews.”
What the Quran does is no different to me then what the Pharisees did when the soldiers came to report to them what had happened with Jesus.
Matt 28:11-15 (ESV)
While they were going, behold, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had taken place.
And when they had assembled with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sufficient sum of money to the soldiers
and said, “Tell people, ‘His disciples came by night and stole him away while we were asleep.’
And if this comes to the governor’s ears, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.”
So they took the money and did as they were directed. And this story has been spread among the Jews to this day.
Satan is always trying to discredit what Jesus did on the cross because he doesn’t want people to see the light, Satan is the one that blinds peoples hearts from seeing the truth. Only God can open the eyes of those that don’t believe.
sorry typo above…
this part:
“kiss as a sign of who to get, there is no way Jesus would have made a mistake like the Quran states.”
should read:
“kiss as a sign of who to get, there is no way Judas would have made a mistake like the Quran states. “
Brother Beanzer,
Your standpoint is, since you have read the story in the Bible, that’s why you do not believe that Eesa ibn Maryam (Jesus – son of Mary, pbuh), was not elevated, but crucified.
My questions in a row would be
(i) Do you believe Bible to be the word of God (cover to cover)
(ii) Do you believe Matthew 12:38-40
And for further understanding you will have to read the Book of Jonah – (Alive or Dead).
I think this is suffice for you to make you answer your own claim and make you question your own understanding.
Oh yes, very good verse Matthew 12:38-40, Jesus was prophesying his own death, saying he would be dead for three days and then would come back to life. If we look at the story of Jonah you will see he was running away from God, in a way he represents all of us, and because he ran away the sea became violent and the men on the boat feared for their lives. Just like that boat when we are in sin our lives are not with peace with God, there is turmoil between us and God. The men tried to row the boat back to shore but could not, in the same way by our own efforts we cannot be made right with God. They had to throw Jonah overboard, and they thought for sure he would die, but a fish came and swallowed him. Now Jesus when he went to the cross took on the sins of the world, he took the place of Jonah, our rebellious state and allowed himself to be thrown over the boat(ie the cross) so that we could have peace with God. The sea calmed down once Jonah was thrown over, in the same way God took out his wrath on Jesus. Now Jesus remained dead for three days, and came alive on the third day. The story in Jonah was that Jonah was in the fish for three days and then it spat him onto dry ground. While Jonah is in the fish he is a representation of how Jesus would be in a tomb (dead) for three days, there is a correlation between the two. So to me this very much represents what Jesus did for me on the cross. And now you know how I view this verse in correlation with the book of Jonah.
Read Jonah chapter 2 of Jonah’s prayer he says a few things that would interest you.
“I called out to the LORD, out of my distress,
and he answered me;
out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
and you heard my voice.
(Jonah 2:2 ESV)
I did a search in google on Sheol (I already know what it means but for your benefit I did this) and its meaning was: Sheol (pronounced “Sheh-ol”), in Hebrew ???? (She’ol), is the “grave”, or “pit” or “abyss”.
Now this is confirming how the belly of the fish represents Sheol and that God hears Jesus from sheol, now you will also see something in this prayer:
[6] at the roots of the mountains.
I went down to the land
whose bars closed upon me forever;
yet you brought up my life from the pit,
O LORD my God.
(Jonah 2:6 ESV)
This is talking about the resurrection of the Messiah (Isa, Jesus), Jesus said the sign of Jonah, now you know what he means by this. Just as Jonah was brought up out of the fish(after three days) that represented Sheol, so too Jesus was brought back from the grave as the perfect sacrifice for our sins.
If you believe what I have written, if you confess Jesus to be your Lord and savior you will be saved from your sins. Jesus’s death on the cross was so that we might be restored into a right relationship with God, Because sin stops us from having this relationship God loved us so much that he sent his Son (his equal, who is one with God) to die for our sins. You need Jesus, and He loves you and wants you to have a restored relationship with God. Please at least search what I have said to you, and question yourself, do you really feel right with God? Despite everything you do to try and please God do you feel assured of peace with Him? If not then I believe God is working in your life to call you to Him. If you don’t feel this, well I always believe there is hope, but until you see that because of your sin your separated from God you will never actually be made right with God, because you will live through the rest of your life believing you can do it yourself, that by doing things the right way, you will gain entrance into heaven (where God is). The only way is through faith in Jesus, and from that faith will come forth works of righteousness because of that faith, and love and joy and freedom from sin.
I do believe the bible from front to cover is God’s word. And it’s the best book to have in the world, search it and treasure it. It’s amazing how sometimes you can be reading it and God will reveal something about a passage you have read many times before, it’s almost as if the many times you read it before your eyes were closed. Well it’s God who opens the eyes.
Brother,
It is said that an account of Moses and the later Prophets (pbut) and of their teachings is contained in the Old Testament. But consider the Bible from the historical viewpoint. The original text of the Torah, as revealed to Hadrat Moses (pbuh), had been destroyed at the time of the sack of Bait-ul-Maqdas in 6 BC, and along with it the scriptures of the former Prophets (pbut) had perished. In 5 BC, when the tribe of Israel arrived in Palestine after their release from the Captivity in Babylon, the Prophet Ezra (pbuh), assisted by some venerable collaborators, prepared an account of the life of Moses (pbuh) as well as a history of the tribe of Israel. In this work were incorporated in appropriate places such verses of the Torah as were readily available to the author and his associates.
In the period falling between the fourth and second century BC, Various authors penned down the Scriptures ( from which sources we know not) of those Prophets who had preceded them by several centuries. In 300 BC, to cite an instance, an unknown writer wrote a book in the name of Hadrat Yunus (pbuh) and incorporated it in the Bible, despite the fact that Hadrat Yunus was a Prophet of the 8th century BC. The Zubur (Psalms) were committed to writing five centuries after the death of Hadrat Daud (pbuh) and to them were added sonnets composed by some hundred poets. We have no knowledge of the sources from which the compilers of the Zubur (Psalms) had gleaned those Sonnets.
Hadrat Sulaiman (pbuh) died in 933 BC, and Amsal-i-Sulaiman (An Anthology of Soloman’s Proverbs) was compiled in the year 250 BC which also incorporated the maxims of several other sages.
In short, no book of the Bible bears an authentic connection with any Prophet to whom it is ascribed. Furthermore, even these books of the Jewish Bible perished at the second sack of Bait-ul-Maqdas in 70 AD, leaving only their Greek translation extant, a translation dating back to the period falling between 258 BC and the first century BC.
In the second century AD, the Jewish scholars prepared a Jewish Bible with the help of manuscripts which had survived the vicissitudes of time. The oldest copy of this Bible now extant dates back to 916 AD. Apart from this, no other Jewish manuscript exists anywhere today.
The Jewish scrolls discovered in the cave of Qumran on the Dead Sea are not older than the first and second century BC, and even those contain a few scattered fragments of the Bible.
The earliest manuscript comprising the first five books of the Bible current among the Samaritans was written in the eleventh century AD. The Greek translation prepared in the second and third century BC was marred by countless errors. A retranslation from Greek into Latin was done in the third century AD. By what standard can we judge this material as an authentic source of the life-histories and teachings of Moses (pbuh) and the later Prophets of the Jews?
Finally, there were certain unwritten legends known as oral law, current among the Jews. For a span of thirteen or fourteen centuries they remained unwritten until, in the later part of the second and the beginning of the third century AD, a priest known as Yahuda B. Sham’un committed them to writing under the title of ‘Mishnah.’ Commentaries on this work by the Palestinian Jewish scholars under the name of ‘ Halaka’ and by Babylonian scholars under the title ‘ Haggada ‘ appeared in the third and fifth century respectively. The ‘ Talmud’ is, in fact, an anthology of these three works. Significantly, authoritative evidence which may reveal the chain of transmission is lacking in the case of all traditions incorporated in these books.
Christian Scriptures
A similar state of affairs exists in the case of Hadrat Isa’s character and teachings. Jesus (pbuh) conveyed orally to the people the Bible which God originally revealed to him. His disciples, too, propagated it among the people by the spoken word in such a manner that they presented an admixture of their Prophet’s life-story and the revealed verses of the Bible. None of this material was put into writing during the lifetime of Jesus (pbuh) or even in the period following him. It fell to the lot of the Christians whose vernacular was Greek to transform these oral traditions into writing. It must be borne in mind that Christ’s native tongue was Syriac or Aramaic and his disciples spoke the same language as well.
Most Greek-speaking authors heard these traditions in the Aramaic vernacular and committed them to writing in Greek. None of these writings is dated prior to the year 70AD; there is not a single instance in these works where the author has cited an authority for an event or maxim attributed to Hadrat Isa (pbuh) in order that we might construct a chain of transmission. Furthermore, even these works have not survived. Thousands of Greek manuscripts of the new Testament were collected, but none of them is older than the fourth century AD; the origin of most of them does not go beyond the period spanning the 11th to the 14th centuries.
Some scattered papyrus fragments found in Egypt can lay claim to no greater antiquity than the third century. We cannot say when the Bible was translated from Greek into Latin. Nor do we know the writer’s name.
In the fourth century AD, the Pope commissioned a review of the Latin translation. In the sixteenth century, this version was discarded and a fresh translation from Greek into Latin was prepared. The Four Bibles were most probably rendered into the Syriac language from Greek in 200 AD, but the oldest Syriac manuscript extant was written in the 4th century. A handwritten copy dated back to the 5th century AD contains, in frequent parts, a different version.
Among the Arabic translations made from the Syriac none is known to have been prepared before the 8th century AD. It is curious that some seventy different versions of the Bible were prepared, four of which were approved by the leaders of the Christian religion, while the rest was rejected. We have no information concerning the grounds for their approval or rejection. But can this material be credited to any extent with authenticity as regards the character and message (gospel ) of Jesus (peace be upon him)?
With regards to other leaders of religion the situation is not dissimilar. Take, for example, Zoroaster whose birth date is not shrouded in mystery. The most that can be said about him is that there is evidence of his existence some 250 years before the subjugation of Persia by Alexander. In other words, his life can be dated some five centuries before Christ (pbuh). His book “Avasta,” in its original language, is extinct today; the language in which the book was originally written or orally propagated is dead.
In the 9th century AD, a translation of “Avasta” was published in nine volumes, out of which the first two volumes perished. The earliest surviving manuscripts of the book dates from the middle of the 13th century. Such is the condition of Zoroaster’s book. As for his character, our information does not extend beyond the detail that he began preaching his religion at the age of forty. Two years earlier, King Gustaph became his disciple and Zoroaster’s creed turned into a State religion. Zoroaster lived to be 77, and after his death, as time went on, legends were spun around his life, all of them apocryphal.
One of the renowned religious personalities of the world was Buddha. Like Zoroaster, he might have been a Prophet. Yet he left no book, nor did his followers claim that he had given one. A hundred years after his death, a movement was started which lasted for several centuries to collect his maxims and the account for his life. But no compiler of the Buddhist scriptures produced during this period furnishes a chain of evidence for the maxims and teachings of Buddha. It is evident that even if we wished to turn for guidance to other Prophets (peace be upon them) and religious leaders, we could not come by a reliable source from which might be derived authentic and unassailable information on their history and teachings.
We are left with no alternative but to turn to the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who left a trustworthy Book free of any excisions or adulterations; the Prophet (pbuh) whose detailed history, sayings and practices were transmitted to us by authoritative sources so that we would be guided by his example. In the entire course of history such a leader could only be found in the sublimely gifted person in Muhammad (pbuh). The Holy Prophet (pbuh) put forth a Book (the Holy Quran) with the definite claim that it was the Word of God which had been revealed to him. On scrutiny, we positively feel that this Book is free of interpolations. The Book does not incorporate a single maxim of the Holy Prophet (pbuh); rather, the inclusion in this Book of any sayings of the Prophet(pbuh) has been scrupulously avoided.
In this Book, the Holy Prophet’s life(pbuh), the history of the Arabs and the events which occurred during the period of the revelation of the Quran have not been mingled with the Divine verses, as is the case with the Bible. The Quran is the pure Word of God. Not one word therein is not divine. Not a single word has been deleted from its text. The Book has been handed down to our age in its complete and original form since the time of Muhammad (pbuh). From the time the Book began to be revealed, the Holy Prophet (pbuh) had dedicated its text to the scribes. Whenever some Divine Message was revealed, the Holy Prophet (pbuh) would call a scribe and dictate its words to him. The written text was then read to the Holy Prophet (pbuh), who having satisfied himself that the scribe had committed no error in recording, would put the manuscript in safe custody. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) also used to instruct the scribe about the sequence in which a revealed message was to be placed in a particular Surah. In this manner, the Holy Prophet (pbuh) continued to arrange the texts of the Quran in systematic order until the end of the chain of revelations. Again, it was ordained from the beginning of Islam that a recitation of the Holy Quran must form an integral part of worship. Hence the illustrious Companions (pbut) would commit the Divine verses to memory as soon as they were revealed. Many of them learned the entire text by heart and an even greater number memorized different portions of it.
Besides, those of the Companions(pbut) who were literate used to keep a written record of several portions of the Holy Quran. In this manner, the text of the Holy Quran was preserved in four different ways during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet(pbuh):
1. The Holy Prophet(pbuh) had the whole text of the Divine Messages from beginning to end committed to writing by the scribes of revelations.
2. Many of the Companions(pbut) learned the entire text of the Quran, syllable upon syllable, by heart.
3. All the illustrious Companions(pbut), without exception, had memorized at least some portion of the Holy Quran, for the simple reason that it was obligatory for them to recite it during worship. An estimate of the number of the illustrious Companions(pbut) may be obtained from the fact that one hundred forty thousand Companions(pbut) participated in the Last Pilgrimage performed by the Holy Prophet(pbuh).
4. A considerable number of the literate Companions(pbut) kept a private record of the text of the Quran and satisfied themselves as to the purity of their record by reading it out to the Holy Prophet(pbuh).
It is an incontrovertible historical truth that the text of the Holy Quran extant today is, syllable for syllable exactly the same as the Holy Prophet(pbuh) had offered to the world as the Word of God. After the demise of the Holy Prophet(pbuh), the first caliph Hadrat Abu Bakr(pbuh) assembled all the Huffaz (those who have memorized the Quran) and the written records of the Holy Quran and had the whole text written in Book form.In the time of Hadrat ‘Uthman (pbuh) copies of this original version were made and officially dispatched to the capitals of the Islamic world. Of these copies extant in the world today, one is in Istanbul and the other in Tashkent. Whoever is so inclined may compare any printed text of the Holy Quran with those two copies. He shall find no variation. And how can one expect any discrepancy, when there have been several million Huffaz in every generation since the time of the Holy Prophet(pbuh) and in our own time? Should anyone alter one syllable of the original text of the Quran, these Huffaz would at once expose the mistake. In the last century, an Institute of Munich University in Germany collected forty-two thousand copies of the Holy Quran including manuscripts and printed texts produced in each period in the various of the Islamic world. Research was carried out on these texts for half a century, at the end of which the researchers concluded that apart from copying mistakes, there was no discrepancy in the text of these forty-two thousand copies, though they belonged to periods spanning the first century Hijrah to the 14th century Hijrah and had been procured from all parts of the world. This Institute, unfortunately was destroyed in the bombing raids on Germany during World War II , but the findings of the research project survived. Another point that must be kept in view is that the word in which the Quran was revealed is a living language in our own time. It is still current as the mother tongue of some hundred million people from Iraq to Morocco.In the non-Arab world also hundreds of thousands of people study and teach this language.
The grammar of the Arabic language, its lexicon, its phonetic system and its phraseology, have remained in tact for fourteen hundred years. A modern Arabic speaking person can comprehend the Holy Quran with as much proficiency as did the Arabs of fourteen centuries ago. This, then, is an important attribute of Muhammad (pbuh), which is shared by no other Prophet or Leader of Religion. The Book which God revealed to him for the guidance of mankind today exists in its original language without the slightest alteration in its vocabulary.
We certainly acknowledge and believe in the Prophet hood of all those who have been named in the Holy Quran as Prophets. But, we lack reliable information by authentic sources on their teaching and their character. There is no doubt about the Prophet hood of Hadrat Noah, Ibrahim, Ishaque, Yusuf, Moses and Jesus Christ (peace be upon them ) and we believe in all of them. But none of the Scriptures revealed to them has come down to us in its original form so that we may benefit from its pristine message. Similarly, the life-history of none of these Prophets (pbut) has been handed down by any authentic means enabling us to follow their example in the various spheres of individual and collective existence. A person who undertakes to prepare an account of the teaching and characters of all these Prophets (pbut) cannot write more than a few pages and these too, entirely with the help of the Quran , for nowhere else is authentic material extant about them except in the Holy Quran. For this reason, of all of the venerable men whom we know as Prophets, and all the and all the leaders of religions who conceivably may have been Prophets, we prefer to seek a message and obtain Guidance from the character of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
Regards
Naved Zia
Don’t mind…
But I think you have a poor understanding of what you are claiming.
Before I go ahead with the topic.. I would like to clear a few things from my end.
My comments in no way is to ridicule.
Also however strong inclination you have towards Christianity, Jesus, Ressurection, etc… I would say look from my point of view and then try to counter it for yourself… not for me. If my points sounds logical that’s enough for you to question your own self.
Where did you learn that Jesus was prophesising his death for three days? Are there any such unambigious statements ?
He said AS jonah was three days and three night in the belly of the fish, SO shall the son of man be three days and three night in the heart of the earth.
My question is HOW WAS JONAH IN THE BELLY OF THE FISH? DEAD OR ALIVE?
And if you are going to say He did not mean that.. then what did he mean and what proof do you have? For your way of interpretation.
Actually I should thank Brother Naved to make my task easy. He has already provided a history of religious scriptures for different adherents.
And we firmly believe that there is no ORIGINAL religious scripture left on the face of the earth except the Holy Qur’an which appears exactly the way it was revealed. And we not alone on the list to claim that…. there are many staunch critics to approve of it.
We also believe that the present day Bible is not the word of God. It may contain several verses which can be directly attributed to God, but a major chuck of it has ambiguity and has matter which cannot be attributed to God.
Let me quote you an example for this…
I will raise them up a prophet . . . and I will put my words in … and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” (Deuteronomy 18:18)
Ask any Christian, and he would say this is the word of God.
“And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord:” (Mark 12:29)
Ask any Christian and he would say this is the word of Prophet of God.
“And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he, (JESUS) came, if haply he (JESUS) might find anything thereon: and when he (JESUS) came to it, (Jesus) found nothing but leaves . . .” (Mark 11:13)
This is neither the word of God, nor his Prophet… so what it is then? Who wrote it? May be the writer of the book as an eyewitness or hearsay.
The bulk of bible falls into this third category. And apart from this… there are a lot of other things which you want to attribute it to God. For example dozens of mistakes and contradictions, Pornography, obscenity, incest story of the highest order… and you want to say that all of it is the Word of God. What was God trying to teach in there? Different ways of committing incest or ways not to commit incest?
Let me give you examples for the above said.
Genesis 19
Genesis 38 etc
We have a test for our book of God. And it says
DO THEY NOT CONSIDER THE QUR’AN (WITH CARE)
HAD IT BEEN FROM ANY OTHER THAN ALLAH
THEY WOULD HAVE FOUND THEREIN MANY DISCREPANCIES
(Al-Qur’an 4:82)
I hope I was able to convey the message correctly.
Regards.
Well actually you failed to consider the accuracy of your own book, and the manuscripts.
“A manuscript analysis of the Qur’an does present us with unique problems not encountered with the Bible. While we can find multiple manuscripts for the Bible written 700-900 years earlier, at a time when durable paper was not even used, the manuscripts for the Qur’an within the century in which it was purported to have been compiled, the seventh century, simply do not exist. Prior to 750 A.D. (thus for 100 years after Muhammad’s death) we have no verifiable Muslim documents which can give us a window into this formative period of Islam (Wansbrough 1978:58-59). In fact the primary sources which we possess are from 150-300 years after the events which they describe, and therefore are quite distant from those events (Nevo 1994:108; Wansbrough 1978:119; Crone 1987:204). For that reason they are, for all practical purposes, secondary sources, as they rely on other material, much of which no longer exists. We simply do not have any “account from the Islamic’ community during the [initial] 150 years or so, between the first Arab conquests [the early 7th century] and the appearance, with the sira-maghazi narratives, of the earliest Islamic literature” [the late 8th century] (Wansbrough 1978:119).”
http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/qurmanu.htm
So unlike what you think, the Quran is not the book you think it is. And by the way you where wrong about the earliest manuscripts being 11th and 14th century, the earliest we have is from 2nd century(http://www.carm.org/manuscript-evidence), so you might have some bad sources of information concerning these things. I don’t have time to look over all the details of what you wrote, it would take a whole study of biblical history and researching on my behalf to do it, but given that your accuracy with new testament wasn’t so accurate, I am not sure of how accurate the rest is.
Where did you learn that Jesus was prophesising his death for three days? Are there any such unambigious statements ?
Actually you will see if you read the gospel Jesus talks about his death more then Just once. When Jesus talks about the sign of Jonah, you can go read it, see what happened to Jonah and read Jonah’s prayer, Jonah was in the fish three days, then the fish spat him out. The story of Jesus tells us he was in the tomb for three days and then resurrected. Its obvious to me what Jesus is talking about. Another thing you have to consider Jesus talked in parables during his life and said:
[13] This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. [14] Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“‘You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
[15] For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
(Matthew 13:13-15 ESV)
My question is HOW WAS JONAH IN THE BELLY OF THE FISH? DEAD OR ALIVE?
Before I answer this, let me ask you a question, What did Jonah call the Belly of the fish?
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The bulk of bible falls into this third category. And apart from this… there are a lot of other things which you want to attribute it to God. For example dozens of mistakes and contradictions, Pornography, obscenity, incest story of the highest order… and you want to say that all of it is the Word of God. What was God trying to teach in there? Different ways of committing incest or ways not to commit incest?
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You Quran has the same kind of contradictions(the things you think are contradictions in the bible are places you need to really search to find out their meaning, they are not contradictions, its more like a puzzle) but there are not dozens of mistakes in the bible. There is a story in the bible that talk about David going to the top of his palace and seeing a beautiful woman, he takes her and makes her pregnant, and then puts her husband in the front line of battle so he will die committing murder, these stories are for us to learn from, not for us to go and repeat. God punished David for what he did, and David repented from his wrong, and we see from the story how David was punished, but also how God forgave David for what he did because he repented. You see, If you read this story and you have a dirty mind, you will miss out on the meaning and final outcome. Don’t read the bible with such a black heart, if you do, you will see nothing because you will be as good as blind when you read it. Repent and turn to God, seek truth and maybe your eyes will be opened.
There hasn’t been one Muslim I’ve shared with who hasn’t come back with the same argument that the bible is not accurate or God’s word. Its only showing me that Muslims are not from God because they discredit God’s own word while claiming their own to be his. None of the verses you quote from the bible to prove its not God’s word does what you think, in fact Deuteronomy 18:18 has been fulfilled in Jesus and proves that the bible is God’s word. Did you know Jesus is considered as, king, priest, prophet, Son of God, God, Emanuel, Yeshua, divine, anointed one (Messiah), of coarse I would be write to say Jesus is a prophet, but he is that and so much more. If I ask a Christian what the words of Jesus are, they will answer me the Son of God’s word, I know no Christian brother who will answer me with prophet. They will however agree with you if you say to them Jesus was a prophet, because he was that also.
Let me explain to you our different views on God, put on your thinking cap for this one, it might be hard to understand what I’m saying (because its not written in the best English, but bear with me please). If you came up to me and held to me a glass of water and asked me, what is inside this cup I would answer you, H2O then you say to me, no its not, its water, so I agree with you (because H2O is also water), then you disagree and tell me… “see because its water its not H2O. Then you give me proof saying, H2O has three parts, water is just one, therefore H2O cannot be water because its just one. So I explain to you how H2O, that there is 2 hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom, but you call me a liar and the book that explained it to me you say is false because it disagree’s with your book that tell you water is one and cannot be three. We are both talking about the same thing, that being water, but one of us has a false perception about what water really is. In the same way when you talk about God you give your testimony saying God is one, in which I agree with you. Then I explain how God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit but then you deny this and call me the liar. Water is made up of three parts, in the same way, God is made up of Father, Son and Holy spirit and they are one.
Dear brother,
You rightly acknowledge that the claims would take a whole study of the biblical history and researching on a personal level. Also to point out in your statement where you state that I might have some bad source of information. I would like to point out the same that it may hold good for you too. So in such a situation where we cannot confirm the source (at least from a layman’s point of view) for neither are you a researcher or a scholar nor am I one of them, nor can we establish a reliable research on the originality of the script and the message. The only way to judge would be on the basis of actual religious text – what it speaks of.
Irrespective whether you still have the ancient manuscript preserved or not, partly or wholly. The present day bible is still not the Original word of God.
And I would like to acknowledge the same before I proceed that I too am no scholar. But yes we all do have some scholars whom we follow.
And there should be no objection to the understanding that a man’s religion (of ideologies, understanding, reason, interpretation) is the religion of his scholar (not necessarily limited to one) whom s/he accepts. For I and you definitely cannot learn and understand everything on our own. There has to be someone who interpreted that there’s no three God, but One and it should be taken that way. Not to take a particular verse literally, but metaphorically or figuratively. Also to clarify that this verse should be taken as letter of the law and some other as the spirit of the law.
I also agree that a religious book can contains parables
-seeing they see not, hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
-let the dead bury the dead.
But it should be taken into account that all of the words cannot be parables. For a message from the God should fall into either one or more of the four categories.
1. Must teach a doctrine;
2. Reprove of our error;
3. Offers correction and
4. Guide towards righteousness.
I hope we are in accordance till now. And if you think there is a fifth category as well, we would love to hear that.
Now coming back to your statement on signs of Jonah, He being in the fish’s belly prays from there and fish spat him out and it is obvious to you what Jesus was talking about.
Here I marked that you have not stressed on the exact demarcation of “THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS” and has conveniently stated just “three days”. That’s fine… I can take up the statement even if you would have stressed on the time factor of “THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS”.
My question would be what parable can you deduce in the statement – “As Jonah was 3 days n 3 nights in the belly of the fish, so shall the son of man be 3 days n 3 nights in the heart of the earth”.
Now mark that two possibilities we are fighting for here are “He was dead” and “He was alive”.
And I seriously urge you to think about it brother rigourously whether in the literal sense, or metaphorical sense or whatever. What parables can you deduce (if at all a parable is implied).
Jonah was in problem, Jesus was in problem
Jonah faced hardship, Jesus faced hardship
Jonah was boxed (fish’s belly), Jesus was boxed (tomb)
Jonah was alive, Jesus was DEAD.
Do you think it goes in line even from a parable’s perspective?
Let me add some more statements to support my view.
1. None of the Jesus disciples were eye-witness or ear-witness to the actual happenings of the 3 days as vouched by St. Mark who says that at the critical juncture in the life of Jesus: “they all forsook him and fled” (Mark 14:50). So whatever they heard was from hearsay (not confirmed), that his master has been hanged on a cross and he died and was buried etc.
2. If you read just above the statement which I quoted where Jesus said “As Jonah was 3 days n 3 nights…………………) It reads “An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; And there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of Jonah”. May I ask why should a Messenger, a Mesiah speak like that, move over with his disciples?
3. You see if Jesus was not dead, then there is no resurrection. And if there WAS resurrection, then the body is spiritualized, immortalized. They will not be subject to death anymore, no more thirst, no more hunger etc. “Neither shall they die any more” (Luke 20:36) and he further says “for they (the resurrected bodies) are equal unto angels, that is, that they will be Angelised – spiritualized, that they will become spirit creatures, i.e. spirit; and the children of God, for such are the children of the resurrection.”
Now recall when Jesus returned to that upper room after his alleged crucifixion: “and saith unto them, (his disciples), ‘Peace be unto you” (Luke 24:36) and they were terrified on recognizing him. Can you reason out why should they be terrified? The obvious answer is that they mistook him for a Ghost or a spirit as they were informed that their master was crucified and died and was buried. But when you read further down in verse 39 it says “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit has no flesh and bones, as ye see me have. Further it says ‘he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of broiled fish and of an honeycomb. And he took it and ate it before them”. Remember that a spirit is free from hunger and thirst and death?
Brother this is not a fighting ground where both of us say “I MUST WIN”. There were a couple of more things I could have added, but you see it is now running into a huge discussion and everything cannot be discussed here in great details.
I also wanted to refute your arguments on Qur’an, but it would have again run into a detailed discussion. So let’s keep it aside for the time being to make you believe in it. You believe in the Bible.. fine .. that’s enough.
I would request you, urge you, push you, and challenge you to go through a couple of books by Sheikh Deedat like…
1. Is The Bible God’s Word
2. Resurrection Or Resuscitation
3. Was Jesus Crucified
4. What Was The Sign Of Jonah ETC
(http://english.truthway.tv/)
And also some of his debate, symposium, lecture like..
1. Is the Bible God’s Word?
2. Was Christ Crucified?
3. Is Jesus God? ETC
(http://english.truthway.tv/)
If you have time, it would be my humble request to have a look at it once… at least for the sake of refutation. For I’m sure one who wins himself if far more satisfied than any other thing.
I pray for your hidayah.
Peace be on you.
JazakAllah brother “Illusion” for the reply. May Allah give hidayat to all to seek the truth in the correct and most humble manner.
Brother “beanzer80”,
Just wanted to add here..:
The very first word revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) was ‘iqra’ meaning read or recite (Surah 96 Ayah 1). Thus it is not surprising that as soon as a verse was revealed, he would memorize it so that he could recite it to others, and the very next Surah that was revealed was Surah 68 Ayah (1-2), which emphasised the use of pen, thus not only that the revealed verses were memorized, they were also put in writing.
“Nun. By the Pen and by the (Record) which (men) write.” (68:1)
“Thou art not by the grace of thy Lord mad or possessed.” (68:2)
Among the many companions of the Prophet, some of the most literate, who had good command of the Arabic language, were Abu-Bakr, Ali Ibn Abi-Talib, Othman Ibn Afan, Zaid Ibn Thabit, Umar Ibn Alkhattab. There were many companions towards the end of this mission, some were more closer to the Prophet than others. They were all very pious and righteous people, full of integrity and honesty. They were ready to follow and support the Prophet at the expense of all their personal belongings and lives. In addition to acting as his scribes, they also memorized the Qur’an directly from Muhammad (pbuh).
As soon as a portion of the Qur’an was revealed, Muhammad would call his scribe, from among his companions, to record it in writing. The Prophet would than ask the scribe to read the portion to ensure that what was written down was verbatim word of Allah. Once satisfied with the written text, the Prophet would instruct the scribe to put the verse or verses where they belonged. That is, he would say the name of the Surah and the location where the just revealed portion (verse or verses) were to be inserted, thus ensuring that the textual order of the Qur’an was in accordance with the Divine plan.
His scribes used leather, parchments, leaves and tablets to write down the verses. These manuscripts were kept in the safe custody, and it is reported that in fact they were kept in the house of the Prophet.
Since Muhammad (pbuh) was the ‘Living Qur’an’ and many Muslims during his lifetime who had memorized the Qur’an were ‘Living Copies’ of the Qur’an, there was no need or urgency to put the manuscripts together to form the first official volume.
However, after the death of the Prophet, more than seventy Huffaz (memorizers of the Qur’an) were martyred in the battle of Al-Yamamah. This caused a great deal of concern to Umar-ibn-Khattab (one of the close companions of the Prophet), who was deeply concerned at this sudden loss of the „Oral Copies¾ of the Qur’an. He approached Abu Bakr, the first caliph, to start the process of gathering the manuscripts of the Qur’an under one official volume for reference and for the future. Abu Bakr, with some reluctance, appointed Zaid; another companion of the Prophet, with the task.
Zaid had memorized the Qur’an, was one of the main scribes and had heard the Prophet recite the Qur’an to Angel Gabriel during Ramadan. He was also a man of piety, integrity and honesty, as such had all the credentials needed to undertake such a supreme task.
Zaid, along with other trustworthy and competent colleagues, collected the manuscripts from many people and started to compile them in accordance with the Prophet’s original instructions. This was not done behind closed doors or in secret, it was in fact a public affair.
Even though he was an authority in the Qur’an, he took many steps to check, cross-check with other memorizers and with manuscripts from many other companions to guarantee that the final compiled version was authentic and that no alteration or modifications were made.
Just to illustrate how authentic the Qur’an is, this is one of the striking examples. Every Surah in the Qur’an begins with the usual formula of ‘bismillah’ (In the name of Allah). However, Surah nine is the only exception – it does not begin with the formula of ‘Bismillah’. It is the natural tendency of all human beings to follow the most normal and common practice. Hence, Zaid and other companions of the Prophet would have been tempted to add ‘ismillah’ to make it consistent with all the other 113 Surah in the Qur’an, but they refrained from such alteration or addition.
Chronologically speaking the revelation of Surah eight and Surah nine are separated by an interval of seven years. Although the Prophet had directed that Surah nine should follow Surah eight, it was not clear whether the Ayat (verses) were to form a separate Surah or to form a part of Surah eight. As such, Zaid treated it as a separate Surah (Surah 9), but the ‘Bismillah’ was not prefixed to it, as there was no warrant for supposing that the Prophet used the ‘Bismillah’ before it in his recitation of the Qur’an.
This methodology proves how honest and truthful Zaid was in his compilation. The first official volume, prepared under the supervision of Zaid, of the Qur’an was in the custody of Abu Bakr, the first Caliph. Before his death, he passed this copy to Umar, the second Caliph who in turn passed it to Hafsa, one of the widows of the Prophet.
There are more detailed and factual and authentic narrations on these.. probably i will cover the details on some other podium later.
I know the internet is bombarded with incorrect informations about Islam (specially most of the sites by non-muslims, its a matter of precaution). So we always want to go back to the original source (the Quran and the authentic Hadiths).
Peace be on you.